62 Responses to:
LDS BOOKSTORE FEUD SHOULD END

# 1. 7/18/06 12:50 AM by Darryle B. - Springville, N.Y.
all business' need competition. if Seagull is still able to sell Deseret products without sale flyers/posters, common sense tells me that is a plus without the cost of unneeded flyers. if there is no competition higher prices will happen until customers feel its not worth the cost. ps. Friday end of show at 2 min. to 2 oclock / my email did not go through for 5k run in east otto,ny. as far as Zoar Valley info www.zoarvalley.org/home.html site has trail maps & directions sorry about delay.

# 2. 7/18/06 1:21 AM
They are the premeir companies I shop deseret book online sometimes. In Idaho and Utah there are a few lds people that sell book's themselves. I am sure they buy them from deseret book.

I don't know how it will effect places like beehive book or mop and pop lds bookstores this feud. With online shopping hopefully some of them can stay in business. Probably will.

I don't know if mop and pop businesses buy from deseret book or someone else either.

# 3. 7/18/06 5:11 AM by Gudger
Bob these people are running a business not a charity. If they have the opportunity to push out a competitor & gain market share then they have a responsibility to their investors to do so. Besides, they'll just end up picking up the people that would have been published under the other label. In a few years when Deseret's prices have gone up, another competitor will step in. That's business. I know you don't like to see this from a "religious" publisher but they have a business to run. Increased profits give the company more money to invest in new writers. There are both pro's & con's to deseret's actions. Maybe Seagull should just sell Bibles. After all, Bibles are the #1 best seller every year without fail (of course you won't see that on the N.Y. times best seller list).

In the end business is business. It's not like the books these guys print is anything new. Anything they sell of any value can be picked up through other means. They are not the only purveyors of "Christian" materials. They simply dominate the Utah market. If the Mormon Church is concerned about people having access to Mormon materials they could start publishing books themselves. They have the resources to do so.

# 4. 7/18/06 5:27 AM
I wonder what would happen if China did that to Wal-mart.

# 5. 7/18/06 6:00 AM
Busines is business. What Deseret is doing is as American as apple pie.

Editor's Note: only if your understanding of capitalism precludes morality. morality circumscribes trade, it is not subjugated to it.

# 6. 7/18/06 6:01 AM
Geez you almost sound like a democrat in this one Bob. Deseret isn't running a charity.

# 7. 7/18/06 6:31 AM
The morality involved in capitalism is about the best interests of your investors, not your competitors. You sell a useful product at a reasonable rate & make the highest return possible for your investors. It's that simple. To do so by legal means is perfectly moral. You make it sound like the world will suffer from the decline of seagull. Believe me it won't.

Editor's Note: you understand neither capitalism nor morality

# 8. 7/18/06 6:34 AM
Let em both go to heck where their materials come from.

# 9. 7/18/06 6:45 AM
perhaps seagull should hire some illegal aliens to make up for it's losses.

# 10. 7/18/06 6:46 AM
Maybe they should both start printing their books in China to save money.

# 11. 7/18/06 6:49 AM
Isn't your book of mormon, doctrine & covenants, & pearl of great price sufficient? Why do you need all this other stuff anyway?

# 12. 7/18/06 6:53 AM
Competition is healthy even in the world of religion. If you boil it down to it's core, isn't a level of spiritual competition the driving force behind missionary evangelism? Aren't the forces of darkness & light competing for the souls of men? Our spiritual lives are all about competition.

# 13. 7/18/06 7:03 AM
Why do you really care?

# 14. 7/18/06 7:09 AM by Rachel -- NY
"only if your understanding of capitalism precludes morality."?

Grow up -- business is business

# 15. 7/18/06 7:33 AM by Mike - Greece
Zzzzzzzzz....

# 16. 7/18/06 7:50 AM by Sandee - Longwood Florida
The interesting thing is Deseret Book doesn't need to make this move to eliminate the competition. I'm only an occasional Utah visitor but I shop at Deseret Book rather than Seagull because it is cleaner, neater, better organized and has prettier displays. If Deseret really looked at it they don't want Seagull to display their merchandise as attractively as Deseret.

Let the market place choose their retailer!

Sandee

# 17. 7/18/06 8:00 AM by Doug
I always said the worst dirty words were "That's business". People think they can do anything to anyone and say " That's business" and make everything better. Don't get me wrong I think capitalism is great but there are limits on everything. I shop at Wegmans and not the big box store and I know I pay a little more, but I also know it cost more to run a store like that because they have better products and take care of their help much better. They also buy locally and support the community. But too many people these days would pass their own brother's store to save 1 cent at the one next door. business has to do the right thing and act with morals which we are sadly lacking these days.

# 18. 7/18/06 8:00 AM by Mike R. - Livonia, NY
Heeeeeeyyyyyy Bob,

So, in your words, Seagull's business is built on the presumption that they would be supplied with products from their competitor.

I don't know if that's all that good a business model to bank your own business on. Does Wegman's sell produce wholesale to Tops? Does Loew's sell hardware wholesale to Home Depot? They obviously didn't to Chase-Pitkin. The Wegman's family saw the writing on the wall and bowed out before the "hardware wars" got too severe.

It's called competition. Seagull sells Deseret books for a profit. Sure Deseret makes a minor profit selling to Seagull. However, if they sold those books themselves, they get to keep ALL the profit.

Gotta love capitalism, huh?

In the old days, back when people drew water from a well, if the well dried up the people had a choice, die of thirst or dig a new well. In this case, Seagull needs to find a new well.

I'm sure if Seagull searched hard enough and its leadership worked hard enough, they would find publishers that would love to have Seagull sponsor and sell their books.

More books, more ideas, more business.

Then we're back to where everyboday's a winner.

# 19. 7/18/06 8:15 AM
Modern business goals are to eliminate competition not protect it.

# 20. 7/18/06 8:19 AM
This makes this section of the LDS business community look petty and stupid.

# 21. 7/18/06 8:26 AM by boj - Ogden, UT
I wouldn't disagree if it was as simple as one publisher not selling to another. Example Bob's publisher not wanting to sell to Amazon but only wanting to sell to Barnes and Noble.

However Deseret books is the publishing arm of the LDS church and many of the titles being denied to Seagull are works of it's leaders and are more or less required reading for it's members. These books should be available freely to any bookstore that is willing to distribute them.

# 22. 7/18/06 8:37 AM by Butter Man - Hartville, OH
I believe Capitalism and Morality are mutually exclusive. You cannot have both. In a free and competitive market there will always be winners and losers. Should we feel bad for the losers? Should we treat the losers as we would treat ourselves? If that is the case we will not let anybody truly lose and the market will not move freely as it should in a completely Capitalistic society. It will be slowed down by Morality, and this is not true Capitalism. Capitalism and Morality work in opposite directions. This is an choice or situation every individual is faced with daily.

Editor's Note: you likewise understand neither capitalism nor morality

# 23. 7/18/06 8:58 AM
This is just another example of how your principles -- in this case, the freedom to compete legally in an open market -- get put in a box when it affects you personally. If this were just a story in the paper or on Fox News, you'd be encouraging the weaker party to get clever, be industrious, suck it up. Because you've got a stake, however, suddenly you'd rather the winner be not just competitive, but kind.

Capitalism and morality are mutually exclusive principles. You know that. It's just not convenient for you in this case.

# 24. 7/18/06 9:16 AM
Childish and petty...

# 25. 7/18/06 9:28 AM by Willy - Pittsford, NY
Just because a business has a trade advantage over their competitors, that doesn't make them immoral. I think it's foolish for Deseret Book to discontinue a distribution line, but I wouldn't call it immoral or unethical. Now if they jacked up prices on their little monopoly, that is unethical and immoral. Capitalism is about getting a business edge over the competition. Deseret Book seems to be thinking this will give them an edge. However, if they take advantage of the consumer by price gouging, then we have real morality issues.

All of this from from a religious book store. Go figure.

# 26. 7/18/06 9:29 AM by Wes - American Fork, UT
They must have learned their business practices from Larry Miller and Dave Checketts.

# 27. 7/18/06 9:29 AM by Michael - Rochester, NY
You are quite a piece of work. This is just like your screed against the Wal-Mart in Lima. Wal-Mart is great in your eyes until they decided they want the store in Lima. You come up with some reasons why they shouldn't build their store in Lima-- as if the Lima location is the only one out of thousands that ever pushed for a zoning variance or otherwise tried to steamroll over the wishes of some in the community, or if all other opposition by communities is invalid, except yours, because you're Bob Lonsberry and you're always right.

This is no different. If this was Widget Company A and Widget Company B, and A was seeking a competitive edge, it would be tough luck B until/if you can get your act together to find a way to beat A. But no, since these are religious books they need to play nice, according to you. Bull.

# 28. 7/18/06 9:35 AM by Heather - NY
Newt is right, but unlike the other wars, we have no Allies

# 29. 7/18/06 9:52 AM
They must not know about Karma...

Editor's Note: chameleon?

# 30. 7/18/06 9:56 AM by tv - rochester, ny
The CONSUMER drives morality of a company. In a market-driven economy consumers have the ultimate responsibility to decide what product to buy and where to buy it based on varying factors, including how they view the seller.

In a true capitalist society, which most conservatives should embrace unless they are not true conservatives, the MARKET should decide who sells what, how much of it, etc.

What you are doing is directly participating in capitalism by informing consumers and forcing them to use this information when they make their purchase decision. You are influencing the market, which is the proper way to address this situation in a market-driven economy.

Your stuff about "morality" is way off, though. It may suit your argument, but it's wrong.

# 31. 7/18/06 10:07 AM
I'm sorry to disagree. I wish you had limited your comments to the seeming conflict between the moral purpose served by these publishers and the cutthroat capitalism being practiced by them. That's an interesting topic, and one worthy of discussion. The idea that a business should do its competitor a favor, on the other hand, is so obviously wrong that it's surprising to see you propose it.

Your columns suggest that religion is very important to you, and it's understandable that you'd like to see the uglier aspects of capitalism removed from religious settings. But you can't have just a little capitalism. Companies are either free to grow and prosper (within the bounds of the law) in a competitive market, or they're not.

If you're in favor of freedom and capitalism, you should be encouraging Seagull to innovatively seek new ways to prosper, not condemning Deseret for acting in its own best interest.

(By the way, Rotary defines "fairness" as that which is legal.)

# 32. 7/18/06 10:38 AM by Andrew - Lindon, Ut
Bob,

You are right on. Deseret book has been run in a very strange way for a while now. Their business decisons are rather strange. I came in contact with this in about 2003. I worked on a somewhat famous LDS book that had been printed since the 1960's by a self publisher and had sold over 75,000 copies. The author's son was publishing a second edition with some updated information about the Book of Mormon (new achaeology etc. ) We went to Deseret book to have them distribute the book (as they had been since the 60's). We had some posters and displays we had hoped to have them put up for promotion. They told us "we only promote books we publish" and refused to allow any promotion. We asked them "what would happen if you only sold books YOU published?" Their reply was "we'd go out of business." Ironically, a week or so later I saw posters for various LDS films, and music not produced by Deseret Book. Maybe it was only books they weren't willing to promote. Who knows. The reality is that if all the other book publishers decided to stop distributing to Deseret book because Desert Book doesn't put up their promotional materials, they would go out of business too. I guess they're lucky they're not getting treated as they're treating Seagull.

# 33. 7/18/06 10:46 AM by Jo - Ogden Utah
Deseret and Seagull Book have co-existed for years very nicely. I suggest letters to Sherry Dew of Deseret Book. People by and large do not bypass Deseret to shop at Seagull. Seagull's stores are not as prevalent and convenient. Covenant is also involved in other ventures, however, so this may or may not seriously affect them. Also, I do wonder how many authors will choose Covenant over Deseret to publish? This could end up with Deseret losing if Covenant offers them a better deal. Unfortunately, though, this does mean that all books authored by general authorities will not be sold through Seagull. I agree with you, Bob. This is not behavior becoming of a religious affiliated institution. This leaves a definite bad taste in ones mouth. And no, Capitalism and Morality are not mutually exclusive to all you morons who think otherwise.

# 34. 7/18/06 10:47 AM by Cam - WA
I am really looking forward to the Millenium when we won't have to hear, "that's just business". I have always felt that LDS bookstores border on thievery, and that the people who need the books the most can least afford them. I would like to see someone run an LDS bookstore like a video store, where you can rent the book for awhile, then buy the excess used ones for less money. If I ever won the lottery (which I can't do because I don't play) that's what I would do with the money.

# 35. 7/18/06 11:14 AM by Pete - Layton
I shop at neither. Much of the fictional, feel-good crap in both stores only lines the pockets of greedy jerks cashing in on some foolish idea that if you're a mormon, you should only buy and read books from deseret book.

I walked thru a guy's cabin up on the Provo river - a huge 2nd home built on selling fictional feel-good nonsense to gullible idiots.

# 36. 7/18/06 11:43 AM by Casi - SLC
I walked into a Seagull Book up in Oregon about 10 years ago and asked for help finding a particular book by an LDS author. I was told that Seagull Book is a Christian bookstore and since mormons aren't christian that I should go look elsewhere.

Ignorance on the part of the idiots working at that particular store, but it still put a bad taste in my mouth and I've never been back to a Seagull since.

The ignorance on my part is that the details of your story are making me wonder if this bookstore was owned by someone else and just conicidentally had the same name...?

I may have been withholding my business from Seagull Book in Utah for no reason.

Editor's Note: seagull book is an l.d.s. bookstore.

# 37. 7/18/06 11:45 AM by Joe
Newt...chameleon.

Chameleon....Newt.

We may be on to something.

# 38. 7/18/06 11:51 AM
Not chameleon, but rather "instant"...

# 39. 7/18/06 12:16 PM by KLP - UT
To The NYers who commented:

Too bad your ignorance is showing through so much. Since you don't understand that the retail arm of Deseret Book and the publishing arm of Deseret Book have been largely separate, you can't possibly make a comment that makes sense. It's only under the 'leadership' of Sherry Dew that the whole company has been rounded up under the same tent and the lines have become blurred.

What they are doing is immoral. The books they publish include the LDS King James Bible, and the other scriptural works LDS people hold sacred. Denying Seagull Book from the sale of such items is tantamount to heresy.

There was a time when such an act would be cause for excommunication, at least in the archives of medieval 'christianity'.

Just my opinion, but BOB, you GOT IT RIGHT! I've had personal dealings with Deseret Book, after they bought out the publisher my father published many books with. Deseret Book refuses to give me, the heir, rights to my father's books, even though he gave me the rights in writing before his death. Deseret Book's current management are petty, immoral cretans, as far as I'm concerned.

# 40. 7/18/06 12:53 PM by Joe
Has anybody EVER seen Newt Gingrich and Boy George at the same time?

...I'm just askin'...

# 41. 7/18/06 12:55 PM by boj - Ogden, UT
Wow, some people are real defensive on this one, I wonder if its because of whos windmill you are tilting at?

Anyway while you are looking at business dealings , how about looking at those Dr Z commercials that Daimler Chrysler is running. Twenty years a we had Lee Iacocca (not sure of the spelling) promoting Chrysler and buy American, Now its "Dr Z" saying accept the supremacy of the new German power... pretty sad

# 42. 7/18/06 1:27 PM by John - Bloomfield,NYI don't know about either bookstore,but best wishes to Jack.
I don't know about either bookstore,but best wishes to Jack.

# 43. 7/18/06 1:38 PM by Michelle - utah
I just go to the public library. If the book I want isn't there, it wasn't worth reading in the first place! LOL

# 44. 7/18/06 1:44 PM by Clemensen - Walnut, Ca.
Seems to me that Praise of God has enough room for more then one publishing company, hence with the Praise of God, one would believe that these two could work hand in hand. However, as most of the following ten respondents, conservative corporate commercialism is far more important. They aren't in lock step with you this time. Money and commercialism is more important, then God. That is the republican way. Though shall help the pocket book of the strongest, sometimes, even with deceit. What good Christian Values.

# 45. 7/18/06 2:07 PM by Darrell F Smith, MD - Midvle, Utah
Dear Bob,Thanks for the article. I am disapointed in in Deserets determination to put Seagall out of business. The Church is expected to live by the higher standard. I doubt very much that their reasons are as stated. I believe it is simply a matter of MONEY. I am a devout Latter Day Saint and I am ashamed of what Deseret is doing.

# 46. 7/18/06 2:11 PM by Bif - Orem, UT
Deseret Book seems to be following the Microsoft business model on how to lose friends and influence people to hate you.

# 47. 7/18/06 2:18 PM by judy - slc
My brother-in-law is a manager at one of the Deseret Book stores. I asked him about this situation. He said that Seagull was not living up to many agreements such as the number of books that they promised to buy etc... You can see how it would be a problem if one company ordered a certain amount of merchandise from another company and then backed out before the merchandise was delivered. Apparently Deseret Book has been left holding the back on many books that have not sold as well as predicted.

Editor's Note: deseret book stores are not the ones involved with this. deseret book publishers are. two different heads of the creature.

# 48. 7/18/06 3:18 PM
can't believe you wasted a second on this let them both go out of business others will replace both meatheads you have more important things to comment on and write about time is short bob

# 49. 7/18/06 3:27 PM by Norm - Payson
Kid diddler Bob?

From the deepest trenches of my neologistic heart, "Schwang" to you Bob, schwang to you.

I would write my senator about the Des Book fiasco but he has blocked my emails over immigration issues. I guess I should ask to speak to the manager and voice my complaints next time I am in the DB store. I will be voting with my dollars and supporting Seagull.

# 50. 7/18/06 5:01 PM by Dave - DFW, TX
Desert Book is still selling their books to Walmart and Sam's club; (Yes, I've found a few books hear outside Utah). So, why is Seagull special? Why target one book seller?

Personally, I would not be willing to pay more for just because its single sourced. So, for me whose book budget is not going to increase, I'll be buying even fewer books. So how is that helping the bottom line of DB? I'll simply be even more likely to pass over their books.

And to all those weirdo's that seem to think that Bob is saying DB doesn't have the right to implement their plan, you need to re-read the article. All he's saying is that what their doing is harmful to everybody but them. He didn't even go that extra step of saying to stop shopping at DB book.

Sometimes I wonder if we all read the same article.

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